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Is there really any way to hide from a motivated state actor?

Asking about it on HN is definitely not one.

Relevant xkcd: 538 [1]

[1] https://xkcd.com/538/



One of my favorite HN comments of all time [0] suggested that MMO's provide plentiful means of covertly communicating:

>MMO's are packed with possible communication channels in addition to chat. Ever wonder if that annoying gnome in the auction hall is jumping in morse code? Could signals be sent with bids? Could a character's inventory contents be arranged to leave a message to someone else who shares the login info? Is that nonsense coming from what you presume to be a bot-controlled gold-farming crew really nonsense? When a game goes to great lengths to simulate a world, the possibilities for covert communication are nearly limitless!

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6874143


Reminds me of this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/11/14/why-the-p...

>

The hunt for those responsible (eight terrorists were killed Saturday night, but accomplices may still be at large) led to a number of raids in nearby Brussels. Belgian federal home affairs minister Jan Jambon has said outright that the PS4 is used by ISIS agents to communicate, and was selected due to the fact that it’s notoriously hard to monitor. “PlayStation 4 is even more difficult to keep track of than WhatsApp,” he said.


Are they not subpoening Facebook?


> MMO's provide plentiful means of covertly communicating

This is a plot device in <http://enwp.org/Little_Brother_%28Doctorow_novel%29>.


Also in the film Four Lions where terrorists use an online game to communicate (basically an unbranded Club Penguin). Wouldn't particularly recommend watching the film (it isn't bad, it is just depressing...which is the aim) but the media coverage of this does suggest it is occurring.


Also in the first season of the Jack Ryan show (which only bears a very passing resemblance to Tom Clancy’s Jack Ryan, but has good action)


> Wouldn't particularly recommend watching the film (it isn't bad, it is just depressing...which is the aim)

It’s a comedy, I don’t think it aims to depress.


Thanks to Snowden we know that the NSA is monitoring MMOs. I wouldn't doubt if the FBI wasn't watching over online games too especially the ones targeting kids like fortnite and roblox


No.

Which is why Agora marketplace, digital lawyers, and a slew of others have simply said:

"we no longer operate under any assumption of privacy regardless of measures taken, and have simple refused to operate on the internet any longer."

Which is what the 3 letters want, a chilling-effect to reduce their Herculean-effort to just an Athenian one.


Physical measures might make yourself much more expensive to surveil, to the point of not being worth it.

You can avoid being the "easy picking".


Bingo. Tor is just a layer. You still have to take measures to separate your identity from the device, the behavior, and the location.

When tor falls, the next question is "what do they see?" You have control over that.


If I were hiding from a state actor I'd use a high-bandwidth communications medium like video. In another life I worked for a large live streaming service, the infrastructure required to process terabits of video is mind-boggling in size, extremely technically challenging, and usually involves custom built ASICs and hardware that's expensive and in short supply.

Even with the NSA's budget and infrastructure, I don't think it's technologically feasible for them to decrypt and then semantically process or store that much content. Video is also the vast majority of traffic on the Internet so it would be trivial to hide in plain sight with some creativity (Using stenography to hide content in the video) With 4k you can pack a ridiculous amount of information into even a single frame, and that's one frame among hundreds of thousands, among billions of videos.


> Even with the NSA's budget and infrastructure, I don't think it's technologically feasible for them to decrypt and then semantically process or store that much content.

I have little doubt that they can store terabits of video content. They let us know about their utah data center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center) which was estimated to have as much as 12 exabytes in 2013 and who knows what data centers they have they aren't mentioning. Back in 2003 they had no problems capturing every bit of data that moved over AT&Ts network. Storage is dirt cheap and they can just hang onto everything until they see a reason to dig into it. No need to process everything right away.

You'd think your video would be blending in with all the other video on the internet, but it really wouldn't. Streaming video put out by netflix is going to look very different than streaming video served via youtube vs streaming video over P2P etc.


OP said he doesn't "think it's technologically feasible for them to decrypt and then semantically process or store that much content" meaning it's more about just storing the raw data. Assuming they could store it perfectly fine (which is a big 'if' considering Cisco estimated 7.7 Exabytes of data would be generated per day by 2021), they'd still have to decrypt all the videos, semantically analyze each video (subtitles, object detection, face recognition, etc), find a way to index that information to make it queryable, and run analytics on that data regularly.

Ideally they wouldn't have to search everything when needed and could keep a running file on everyone (because lazily parsing data could be expensive and probably a waste on their existing current resources). That's not to say they can't do it, given that they probably have a huge budget, but it's also not a sure thing they can do it effectively for those who are trying to stay hidden.


> it would be trivial to hide in plain sight with some creativity (Using stenography to hide content in the video)

Steganography is the word in this case. Stenography is different, it means short-hand writing.


Just as there is no perfect boat or perfect date, there is no perfect security or privacy.

You can make things more and more difficult for your adversary (and usually for yourself too) but if they are dedicated enough they can basically outspend you.

Therefore you need to minimize the apparent cost of your actions and their duration. You can afford to be a passing pain in their butt but you can't afford to be the focus of their eye.


Possibly with the help of another motivated state actor.

I believe one of the theories about the proliferation of the current organization of political entities is that the only organization that can reliably compete with one nation-state is another nation-state.


Probably. If you use a laptop once, on a public Wi-Fi hundreds of miles from where you live, while not being caught on surveillance, while using a stripped down privacy based OS, and then route yourself through Tor, you might be okay.


Not if you brought your cellphone on the trip. Or used a car that has a built-in SIM card and cellular modem. Or you bought that laptop from a supplier that registers all MAC addresses of sold devices. Or that laptop had Computrace or some other firmware-based anti-theft mechanism.


Even if you had a car without a cell connection, license plate readers and cameras make it easy for anyone with access to replay and reverse any traveling you do with any car.


This is basically how the prosecutor in the Idaho case is putting Kohberger at the scene. They've also used where his cell phone was pinging during the night of the murders as additional evidence he was there.

Meanwhile, detectives scoured video footage from cameras in the area and picked out a white Hyundai Elantra driving past the house three times before stopping on the fourth pass shortly after 4am. The car left 16 minutes later “at a high rate of speed”, according to Payne

Meanwhile, FBI investigators trawled through Kohberger’s cellphone records and discovered that he turned it off shortly before the attack, perhaps thinking it would help him to avoid detection. The phone springs to life again at 4.48am on a road out of Moscow.

The records also showed that Kohberger was in the area near the house at least a dozen times in the months before the attack, usually in the early morning or late evenings. Investigators said they were examining whether he “conducted surveillance on the King Road residents and was in contact with any of the victim’s associates before or after the alleged offense”.


not to mention the Bluetooth in your car that gets logged on some highways as you drive to help detect and improve traffic patterns.

https://www.wired.com/2012/12/calgary-travel-time-informatio...


Okay so in addition to the above, use a burner and change your MAC address. “Lojacks” on laptops is still mostly pretty unheard of.


> mostly pretty unheard of

Yeah, but if there is an exception to that, it'd be the scenario we're talking about.


The most paranoid plan i have come up with:

- tor + cubesOS set up by somebody you deeply trust (person A)

- on a USB bought by a different person (person B)

- with a network card bought by a different person (person C)

- many miles away, wearing generic clothes in a cafe where people go to work

- different hairstyle and facial hair

- mask

- without having a phone (obv)

- navigating there by changing multiple cars with minimal electronics

- ordering the most boring coffee

- persons A, B, C don't know each other. You don't know personally B, C, but a person(s) D, (and E) can vouch for them.

My gut tells me that the more people you involve, the easier it is to trace you because you will be at the intersection of those people's radii.


What you're describing is likely overkill. Just buy a used laptop on Craigslist. Drive about 50 mi away. Park at a motel and take a yellow cab to a moderately busy Starbucks. Hack away, and then leave via yellow cab. Leave your phone in your car. Pay for everything in cash. Throw away the laptop.

There's a chance that you'll get caught on camera at Starbucks. But the cameras there, if any, aren't set up to provide full coverage and are rotated every few days.

Don't involve any other people , don't wear a disguise. If you're going to alter your appearance in any way, do it when you meet the seller to pick up the laptop.

added: You might want a burner phone to call the cab. But normally a motel desk will do that if you ask nicely.


When they trace the activity back to that starbucks I imagine the fact that you happened to be in the area that day, 50 miles away from your home, stopping at a hotel that requested a cab to that same starbucks would stand out rather quickly.

If you leave your cell phone at home that would help, but you still risk being tracked by your car or being caught on any number of cameras and identified via facial recognition.


> When they trace the activity back to that starbucks I imagine the fact that you happened to be in the area that day

This assumes they are already looking for YOU.


I assume they'd be looking at everyone who was in the area and isn't following their usual routine. That's what I'd do anyway. I'd look into the owners of each device logged that isn't normally around.


Walking and driving without a mobile device on your person is sufficiently unusual that it's a form of metadata in itself. Look at the Kohberger case - they're using the fact he turned his phone off as evidence. In fact, this kind of pattern was even used by the Obama administration while targeting humans in the Middle East for extrajudicial killings. It's even more precise when coupled with traffic analysis: if every Tuesday, an IMEI disappears from the network shortly before another IMEI comes online, then those two devices are likely related. In your scenario, the phone disappearing from the network could be coupled with your car showing up on a traffic camera leaving your house. Ironically, you draw attention to yourself by _not_ advertising your metadata.

At a certain point, the world is full of so much metadata that you really can't control your own. Want to turn off location services? Make sure you turn off WiFi too, because a list of nearby access points and SSIDs is enough to pinpoint you down to a few meters. Want to spoof your location when using an app with network services permission? You'll need to spoof nearby access points and their transmission power to match them to somewhere in the real world. And you better make sure to do it inside a Faraday cage. Because no matter how careful you are, if someone else is walking by your clever hacking nest, and they do have location services enabled, then their phone will be able to pair their geolocation with your unique access point topology. Oh, and even with the Faraday cage, the fact your phone is seeing access points that no other phone has seen is a unique data point in itself.

Point is, you can be compromised without any action on your own part. Traffic analysis is hard to defeat, but you can mitigate against it by not committing crimes that motivate the government to spend resources on tracking you across disparate systems like mobile networks and traffic cameras. Or if you must commit those crimes, then you'll need to make sure everything you do is in the fattest part of the bell curve for every possible statistical test the government can use to analyze common behaviors.


Interesting post. Regarding Kohberger, you would think a PhD in criminology would have left his phone on and at his residence during and leading up to the crime. I read that he had a pattern of taking his phone with him on the same route for several months leading up to the murders... Along with the rest of the sloppiness, that seems to be fairly damning evidence and is low hanging fruit IMO.

Before the internet and mobile phone age I can only imagine how much harder crimes like this were to solve.


> Want to turn off location services? Make sure you turn off WiFi too, because a list of nearby access points and SSIDs is enough to pinpoint you down to a few meters.

Not just wifi, bluetooth is used for location tracking as well.


> - ordering the most boring coffee

The fatal flaw in the plan:

Barista talking to news after person is arrested by FBI: "As soon as they ordered the brewed coffee with no customizations after standing in line for 10 minutes, I knew something was suspicious. Who comes to Starbucks, stands in line for 10 minutes, and then orders boring coffee?"


Good point! Let's make it a caramel macchiato with two pumps vanilla and sugar free creamer! Oh god I am leaking information!


Somehow your comment reminds me of Head First: Design Patterns, where decorator objects wrap each piece of the beverage order: SugarFreeCreamer around Vanilla around Vanilla around Caramel around Macchiato...


That sounds like the most boring coffee. Why would someone wait in line 10 minutes for that?


That's not boring that's basic


They said most boring not most plain.


I do! I like my coffee straight up and if I want coffee, will stand in line for 10 minutes for it.


Just order whatever the person 5 people ahead of you in line ordered.


Hole in the ground far away? Not on the internet presumably. In any case any would be terrorists should take note: don't use grannies computer.


it depends on what you're doing (as far as I understand as a criminal news nerd)

the police-justice system is usually broke for commoners. So yeah, if you're not doing a serious offense, they will never catch you. Where I live, you can buy weed. Even if the government says they're motivated to stop it, they don't have the resources to plant police everywhere. If your home was 'visited' by burglars, they would just take fingerprints. They wear gloves, and that's enough to avoid the state actor.

if you're doing a real serious crime, you can kind-ish avoid attention, if you know retention laws and stuff. if the (mostly digital) traces you generated are too old, they would have disappeared or would not be usable in court. if you appeared on mall CCTV months before you did the crime, have been browsing sites over a year before, ... these data should technically have been deleted.- Just don't create new data in the meantime.

In a similar fashion, some white collar criminals host data in their lawyers office. it is so hard to have a warrant for a lawyers office that you can be safe. A law teacher at our engineering college said it was convenient to hang out with a lawyer - just drop your phone in their purse if cops show up.

then, you can avoid some digital communications. Putin and friends are well known for being mostly offline, unlike some ministers at western governments, for example. Send letters, and you will have that perfect forward secrecy.

there has also been some stories about plausible deniability ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability ), especially among rogue corporations and corrupt politicians. ie when you create data, you can do it in a way where it says what it says, but it's not meaningful in court.

don't drag attention on you. cops shows teach you how so many criminals are found out after a traffic stop, when they were speeding or ran a red light. The government can't check everyone, so they check those who stand out.

Lastly, I remember watching a youtuber who got out of prison, and who said that three people could only keep a secret if 2 are dead. it's a bit pessimistic and dark, but maybe don't just involve everyone in your crimes.

I would like to know if series like Breaking Bad are (or were) realistic. I know some criminals learned a lot from movies.

Edit : or just befriend politicians, you would be above any law in most places. Someone in France once stole 2.5 billions $ in one shot from the government. It what became known as the uramin scandal, and nobody was caught. So everything is possible.


> three people could only keep a secret if 2 are dead

Exactly. Which is why, not to start a JFK war, I think the Mafia killed JFK. If it were the CIA, or LBJ, someone would have talked. Anyone who knew what happened got whacked.


But doesn’t that mean there was someone coordinating the whacking of those in the know? If so, wouldn’t THAT person know the truth?


That assumes that the person coordinating didn't get whacked because they were involved in the wrong part of a different operation


Yeah, but those Mafia bosses don't get where they are by being blabbermouths.

And note that Jimmy Hoffa got disappeared, albeit 13 years later.


Now there's food for thought!


What about www.bitmessage.org ?




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